Monday, 31 August 2026

Labour's nationalist blind spot

 

There is at least one thing which unites former PM Gordon Brown with another former Labour leader, Jeremy Corbyn, and that is an astounding ability to see a huge difference between the constitutional position of Ireland on the one hand and that of Scotland and Wales on the other. It has long struck me as a curious blind spot. Brown told us last week that he sees it as entirely natural that Ireland will, one day, be reunited as a single country, but also that Scotland is “geographically, economically, socially, culturally linked to the rest of the United Kingdom”. The detailed basis for that assertion is, naturally, not detailed, but it leaves him in much the same position as Corbyn who seemed to support the right of all nations across the world to be independent unless they happened to be physically attached to England.

The argument about ‘geographic, economic, social and cultural’ links is remarkably similar to the basis which Putin uses in relation to Ukraine, although I’m sure that Brown would not welcome the comparison. There’s probably nothing that I or anyone else could say that would shift Brown (or Corbyn) from their position, because it’s ultimately not a position based on hard facts or evidence, but one based on a subjective feeling about what constitutes a nation and how we define that. To Welsh and Scottish independentistas, England, Scotland and Wales are nations, and the UK is a state, but to British nationalists, it seems that Britain and Ireland are ‘proper’ nations, whereas Wales and Scotland are some sort of ‘national region’ within a greater nation.

In truth, I’ve never been able to find a satisfactory objective definition of what constitutes a nation. Of course, things like history, language, culture, and geography play a part, but those things combine in all sorts of different ways across the world. Ultimately, no ‘nation’ exists unless its members feel it to be so, which makes nationality highly subjective. It follows that nationality (other than in the strictly legalistic sense of a passport-issuing authority) cannot be imposed on an individual, nor can an individual be told that (s)he cannot be a member of two nations (e.g. Welsh and British) at the same time. It also changes over time – here in Wales, we know that the number of people considering themselves to be Welsh rather than British has risen over recent decades, for example. Whether that reflects a change in their nationality or merely in their perception of their nationality is an interesting academic argument, but in terms of practical politics we only need to understand that it is happening.

The bigger question is whether the existence of a nation requires that nation to be an independent (in the everyday use of the term) unitary state. Nationalists (like Brown) tend to the view that it does, a tendency which tends to close minds to alternatives. Under Brown, or Corbyn – or Starmer or Burnham – Labour is very much a British nationalist party.

9 comments:

Anonymous said...

"the number of people considering themselves to be Welsh rather than British has risen over recent decades" is sadly not correct, if we mean those living in Wales.

John Dixon said...

I suppose that it depends on your starting point. Whilst this report ( https://nation.cymru/news/fall-in-welsh-only-and-rise-in-british-identity-in-wales-census-suggests) suggests that, over the decade from 2011 to 2021 you are correct, since Brexit, other sources ( https://nation.cymru/news/brexit-has-made-people-in-wales-feel-more-welsh-top-academic-suggests/ ) suggest that the reverse has happened. Taking a longer term view, there is surely no real argument that since, say, the 1950s/1960s, Welsh identity has grown stronger?

Anonymous said...

Among people born in Wales, that is doubtless true. However, as only 70% are now born in Wales, Wales has become decidedly less Welsh and Welsh-identifying.

John Dixon said...

Whilst it might be 'obvious' that those not born in Wales are less likely to identify as Welsh (although the correlation is certainly less than 100%), it doesn't follow that an increase in the proportion born elsewhere necessarily translates into the statement that Wales, overall, is less Welsh and Welsh-identifying. In purely statistical terms that depends on whether the increase in Welsh-identifiers amongst the Welsh-born outweighs any effects of in-migration. The references I quoted are, I believe, based on 'whole population' samples. In terms of the original post, where people were born is irrelevant - the question is about self-identity on a 'whole population' basis. So, do you have a source for your assertion that Wales has become decidedly less Welsh and Welsh-identifying"? Because that which is 'obvious' isn't always factually accurate.

The extent to which birthplace matters is another question entirely. I doubt that there is a single identifiable geographically-defined nation (based on subjective self-identity) anywhere in the world which does not contain a significant number of people who do not self-identify as part of that nation. The proportion might vary, but it would be strange if Wales were to be an exception.

Anonymous said...

Stats Wales shows it. A decline from 68% to 62% with a Welsh identity sunce 2000. https://stats.gov.wales/en-GB/676b04a1-143a-4366-805c-4511c8671573/pivot/3qk53r66s7ea?page_size=25#dataset-nav

Anonymous said...

https://stats.gov.wales/en-GB/676b04a1-143a-4366-805c-4511c8671573/pivot/ksbf2ns18uhv?page_size=25#dataset-nav

Anonymous said...

Here is the breakdown. Year% with a Welsh Identity 2000~69.0% Welsh Local Labour Force Survey 2005~67.2% Annual Population Survey (APS Baseline) 2010~66.1% Annual Population Survey 2011 65.9% (57.5% Welsh Only / 8.4% Blended)Official 10-Year UK Census 2015~64.3%Annual Population Survey 2020~62.8%Annual Population Survey (Pre-pandemic) 2021 63.3% (55.2% Welsh Only / 8.1% Blended)Official 10-Year UK Census 2025~61.5%Annual Population Survey Estimate.

John Dixon said...

Thank you for that; it does give a picture for the period concerned. It would be interesting if someone were to explore the reasons for the changes highlighted. I still believe, however, as I said in an earlier comment, that "there is surely no real argument that since, say, the 1950s/1960s, Welsh identity has grown stronger". What starting point we choose makes a difference.

Anonymous said...

Yes, people born in Wales, especially the young in my part of the world - Newport - are very much Welsh identifying, but demographic change across the country has seen Wales become less Welsh-identifying. If this continues, and it is accelerating, we are looking at those born in Wales slipping below two thirds of the population, if that has not already happened.