tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post4981013247478228443..comments2024-03-02T10:38:04.108+00:00Comments on Borthlas: The label on the tin is perfectly clearJohn Dixonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-10937429336610282352018-04-30T08:12:30.108+01:002018-04-30T08:12:30.108+01:00"On a point of order though, the powers to wh...<i>"On a point of order though, the powers to which this all refers are not "returning" to Wales from anywhere. They already exist here. What the National Assembly and Welsh Ministers cannot currently do, but will of course be able to do after Brexit (or rather the tranistion/implementation phase should it happen) is use those powers in a way which is incompatible with EU law. The idea that the powers are "returning" is a misleading description which is used by the UK Government in order to muddy the waters."</i><br /><br />I can agree with all of that.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-9365367481320368642018-04-29T21:53:00.381+01:002018-04-29T21:53:00.381+01:00Ok,I am not going to continue the argument about t...Ok,I am not going to continue the argument about the importance or otherwise of the intergovernmental agreement but for the record, I was not asking you or anyone else to believe anything -I was just stating my own opinion. On a point of order though, the the powers to which this all refers are not "returning" to Wales from anywhere. They already exist here. What the National Assembly and Welsh Ministers cannot currently do, but will of course be able to do after Brexit (or rather the tranistion/implementation phase should it happen) is use those powers in a way which is incompatible with EU law. The idea that the powers are "returning" is a amisleading description which is used by the UK Government in order to muddy the waters.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-22191076881294257222018-04-28T06:10:24.920+01:002018-04-28T06:10:24.920+01:00I'm afraid that I remain unconvinced that West...I'm afraid that I remain unconvinced that Westminster has conceded as much as you claim. There is an existing convention that the central government will not legislate in devolved areas without consent, but we know from the court case over Brexit that any such convention has no real legal standing, and can be over-ruled at will. It seems to me that you are asking us to believe that a political agreement between two governments somehow gives us stronger protection; I don't buy that.<br /><br />What I would agree with is that the Westminster government will seek to come to an agreement rather than legislate without such an agreement, but I think that was always going to be the case anyway. Getting an agreement rather than imposing a framework is always better from everyone's point of view, and for what it's worth, I believed from the outset that the UK Government would seek to do that. But the bottom line was always that they could and would legislate anyway in the absence of such an agreement, and on that point, nothing much has changed.<br /><br />Having said that, even if the Welsh Government had got its way, and all the powers had come straight to Cardiff as they wished, the UK Government would still have had the right to over-rule them in the absence of a negotiated settlement. In that sense, it has been a storm about very little from the outset - it's almost a biggendian argument about where the apparent poweer lives, when the real power lives and will continue to live where it has always lived. But that brings me back to the real point once again: arguing about the detail detracts from the long term argument which is whether we are content as a nation to accept that all powers exercised by the Assembly are only ever 'on loan' or whether we are going to make them ours for real.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-52120783686306004872018-04-27T21:55:18.646+01:002018-04-27T21:55:18.646+01:00John - executives and legislatures are different t...John - executives and legislatures are different things. There is no contradiction in the two comments that you quote.<br /><br />The legislative frameworks will now be co-designed and agreed. Which is what the Welsh (and Scottish) Governments wanted all along but which is a long way from where the UK Government started. There remains a theoretical possibility that, with the consent of the Westminister Parliament, the UK Government could seek to impose a legislative framework against the Welsh Government/Assembly's view. But the agreement makes that exceedingly unlikely. Furthermore (and this is perhaps the most important thing to come out of the agreement) the UK Governement has made a public commitment not to legislate on matters that are clearly and solely within its competence in order to placate a devolved administration. That is a pretty big concession.<br /><br />I agree with your last paragraph.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-1954484291270291562018-04-27T08:35:15.816+01:002018-04-27T08:35:15.816+01:00It seems to me that your comments "...effecti...It seems to me that your comments <i>"...effectively recognising the Welsh Government as an equal for the first time"</i> and <i>"The devolved legislatures are not the equal of the Westminister..."</i> are more than a little contradictory.<br /><br />I don't agree that <i>"the UK Government has moved further than the Welsh Government from its starting position"</i>. As I read it, the deal merely puts a different form of wording around what the UK Government has been insisting on from the outset, namely the right to set up new frameworks, with or without the consent of the Assembly, before allowing the Assembly to administer within those frameworks.<br /><br />But I entirely agree with <i>"If we want a sovereign parliament ... we will have to vote to become an independent, sovereign state."</i> Indeed, that was the point of the post. Complaining that the 'deal' reflects the reality of the constitutional settlement as it stands is pointless without going on to make the argument for a different constitutional settlement. Demanding that things shouldn't work exactly the way they're supposed to work under the present scenario is just whingeing.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-69790097415820025182018-04-26T22:25:17.940+01:002018-04-26T22:25:17.940+01:00Have to disagree with you on this, John. The deal ...Have to disagree with you on this, John. The deal done is of course a compromise but the UK Government has moved further than the Welsh Government from its starting position. Much further in fact, effectively recognising the Welsh Government as an equal for the first time. The new legislative frameworks that all sides agree need to be created, will now be created by agreement on all sides. What the UK Government did not do, and indeed could not do, is concede the sovereignty of the Westminister Parliament. The devolved legislatures are not the equal of the Westminister because they are not, and never could be sovereign parliaments whilst the UK remains a unified state. If we want a sovereign parliament in Cardiff Bay (or Holyrood), we will have to vote to become an independent, sovereign state.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com