tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post4847576284998527557..comments2024-03-26T09:38:39.888+00:00Comments on Borthlas: Who cares what Labour think?John Dixonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-29340324220429560672017-09-27T08:37:06.400+01:002017-09-27T08:37:06.400+01:00Jonathan,
It's not for me to tell Plaid what ...Jonathan,<br /><br />It's not for me to tell Plaid what they should do, but I will make two general comments.<br /><br />Firstly, the party seems completely unable to decide whether its aim is to be a critical friend of Labour and nudge that party in a particular direction, or whether it is trying to replace the Labour Party. And secondly, it seems equally unclear whether it is a campaign for independence or a vehicle for gaining power within existing structures to make comparatively minor changes, with independence as nothing more than a 'long term aspiration'. The result is that it can appear to be trying to do all four and ends up looking at best confused and at worst downright dishonest. <br /><br />That confusion can only be addressed by the party's members and leaders, not me. What I will say is that Wales needs a campaign to persuade people of the value of independence, but depending on a confused political party doesn't strike me as the likeliest route to success.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-76306933440444082017-09-27T08:29:40.888+01:002017-09-27T08:29:40.888+01:00kp,
"You seem to be suggesting that if the p...kp,<br /><br /><i>"You seem to be suggesting that if the poll goes ahead we should expect a 70% turnout."</i> No, I am not. I have made no statement at all about the turnout - all I said was that Catalan opinion polls suggest that around 70% of the electorate want the right to vote on the issue. Actual turnout is quite another matter, particularly in the light of the attempts by the central authorities to disrupt the vote. Whether repression will boost or depress turnout is essentially unknowable at this stage.<br /><br /><i>"As for your second point you are right, I have an inordinately low opinion of 'Welsh' politics and politicians, at each and every level. But there are some politicians in Wales I do have time for. Largely those that don't play politics with the language. And it's much the same when talking about 'the peoples of Wales'. I don't think I'm unique in this, indeed I think I'm in the overwhelming, albeit largely silent majority."</i> You repeat your customary unevidenced assertions once more; when people appeal to the 'silent majority' it's almost invariably an attempt to cover up for that lack of evidence. But this is not the subject of the blog post, so I'm not going to pursue this argument here.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-6346133984706632422017-09-26T20:24:32.009+01:002017-09-26T20:24:32.009+01:00Two thoughts if you are a person who cares about W...Two thoughts if you are a person who cares about Wales.<br />1. The Catalan Referendum is of fundamental significance for Wales for this reason. The Catalans are prepared to face up to Madrid. Like Wales, they face a particular unionist legal system. Like Wales they face political objections from Spanish Tories who are unionist. (Interestingly I write this from North Carolina, which faced EXACTLY this problem in the 1770s, including the use in America of the term "Tory".) The question does boil down to this "Are you willing to create, and stand your ground in, a face-off?" If you are you will probably win the battle of wills. If you are not, you will not. Which is it, Wales? Legality is peripheral, because you can always ratify/legalise your win when you get it. Its about raw will-power.<br />2. "Who cares what Labour think?". I do. We all have to. Their stance is key. I resent it, but I am dependent on the Labour party (led by Welsh Labour?) to make the stand against Brexit. It will do eventually, and I am totally in their hands. <br />I would be interested to know what you, Borthlas, think Plaid should do about Labour in Wales. This is knotty and contradictory, for me and no doubt for Plaid. Consider<br />- ally with them, unconditionally, over Brexit? <br />- form a socialist alliance to run Wales, as Dafydd El would and perhaps Leanne Wood?<br />- show Welsh Labour up for the corrupt incompetents they are - a la McEvoy?<br />- try to peel off and unite with those in Labour (and the Tories, and the Liberals) who will stand up for Wales enough to get "statehood" for Wales is a federal solution (like N.Carolina) which works very well, would be a fantastic advance, but which would not be pure independence? (By the way, the Welsh lawyers are such a cross-party bunch, they have the will and the ability to get the Statehood deal for Wales. Watch the Wales Justice Commission!)<br />- wind Plaid Cymru up, since it is going nowhere except downwards, and try something else?<br />Love to hear your view, really!<br />Jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05937342201811857738noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-32308778861368947772017-09-26T18:32:39.859+01:002017-09-26T18:32:39.859+01:00You seem to be suggesting that if the poll goes ah...You seem to be suggesting that if the poll goes ahead we should expect a 70% turnout. I thought most were pundits were predicting not much more than 50% at best. Let's see.<br /><br />As for your second point you are right, I have an inordinately low opinion of 'Welsh' politics and politicians, at each and every level. But there are some politicians in Wales I do have time for. Largely those that don't play politics with the language. And it's much the same when talking about 'the peoples of Wales'. I don't think I'm unique in this, indeed I think I'm in the overwhelming, albeit largely silent majority.<br /><br />kpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-81432078801270775142017-09-26T17:32:28.925+01:002017-09-26T17:32:28.925+01:00No, I haven't forgotten anyone. It's diff...No, I haven't forgotten anyone. It's difficult to be certain how many don't want even to have the choice, but the best polling information suggests that around 70% want to have the choice, even if they then vote against independence. I'm not sure why you think that the 30% minority should be able to prevent everyone else from expressing a choice, other than an aversion to democracy. As for those who don't want independence under any circumstances, they have every right to express their opinion by voting against. They might even win, although the Spanish state's approach to matters seems almost designed to bring about the result that they don't want.<br /><br />As for your second paragraph, all I can say is that you have made your low opinion of Wales and the Welsh in general clear many times; I really can't be bothered to respond to it again.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-28116570681405102382017-09-26T17:04:38.525+01:002017-09-26T17:04:38.525+01:00Haven't you forgotten about all those Catalans...Haven't you forgotten about all those Catalans that DON'T want to express their wishes regarding independence and all those Catalans that DON'T want independence come what may?<br /><br />To try to draw parallels with Wales is laughable. In Catalonia the workforce is well educated, works damn hard and generates lots of tax money to spread around the rest of Spain. In Wales the reverse is true.<br /><br />kpAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com