tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post8716924331908601248..comments2024-03-26T09:38:39.888+00:00Comments on Borthlas: Economic ResponsibilityJohn Dixonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-83033319424619912332012-08-03T06:40:32.521+01:002012-08-03T06:40:32.521+01:00"Tax base and standard of living are not crit...<i>"Tax base and standard of living are not criteria for independence"</i><br /><br />I agree. Independence isn't about economics - but it does have economic consequences, and the fear of those consequences can be, and is, a factor in the low level of support for independence. People will not vote for something if they believe that we'll all be poorer as a result.<br /><br />It is, though, something of a chicken and egg question - Holtham's argument seemed to be that we can't be independent until we solve the economics, but part of what I was saying in the post is that we can't make the fundamental changes for ourselves unless we are independent. In practice, I think that solving the economic problem and gaining independence are parallel, rather then serial, processes.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-9569567207054325832012-08-02T22:10:24.594+01:002012-08-02T22:10:24.594+01:00I would have to agree with Nospin above to a certa...I would have to agree with Nospin above to a certain extent. The world has become so globalized that it is no longer possible to look at improving an economy without some reference to the outside world at large. By the same token, a focus by a Welsh government would undoubtedly be more focused on Wales then the UK as a whole would be. It could allow for creative policies to attract investment; for example, something like Ireland does with a flat 12% corporate tax, which has been extraordinarily successful for them in luring multinationals there (putting aside the fact of the boom and bust of the real estate boom, that's a separate issue).bamboo investmenthttp://www.greenworldbvi.com/alternative-investments-options/bamboo-forestry-timber/bamboo/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-75797068818279384182012-08-02T20:39:07.528+01:002012-08-02T20:39:07.528+01:00John
Tax base and standard of living are not cri...John<br /><br />Tax base and standard of living are not criteria for independence<br /><br />I remember Vorster in South Africa saying that integration ie the end of colonial rule would be the slippery slope to anarchy in Africa<br /><br />Spirit of BME is right NOW is the timeG Horton-Jonesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-27500578659856669862012-08-02T12:16:22.920+01:002012-08-02T12:16:22.920+01:00It is refreshing to see Leanne take the bull by th...It is refreshing to see Leanne take the bull by the horns, and seek to lead Plaid seamlessly from its history as a party of Language, a battle that it has largely won in terms of the status of our national language - to the party that applies the same energy and imagination to improving the Welsh economy as a precursor to independence. So far, with Adam and Eurfyl doing the hard work, she is confounding our opponents and outshining Carwyn, whose lack of vision she will no doubt dissect in public over the next few years.<br /><br />Holtham is not our enemy -even though his political conclusions are not ours, his analysis can't be ignored.Siônnynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00021974709953206048noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-19980877938865067682012-08-01T18:21:05.321+01:002012-08-01T18:21:05.321+01:00There has to be an exception to prove the rule, do...There has to be an exception to prove the rule, doesn't there? But what I perhaps should have said was that, as far as I am aware, no-one really believes that Wales could move from where we are now to complete independence overnight (although you may be an exception to that rule as well...).<br /><br />The processes involved, including gaining support, holding and winning a referendum, negotiating the detail, establishing the institutions, and transferring the power, and doing all of those things in an orderly fashion, would take time. During that time, 'events' would change the situation. Basing a decision on the consequences of an immediate overnight move to independence is thus an unrealistic scenario.<br /><br />It is, though, a scenario upon which opponents of independence base much of their case. My point, which I was trying to use shorthand to describe, is that it's a false scenario, and not one on which we should waste much time. Better by far to take a realistic view of the timescale (in which the longest element is the minor little issue of gaining the support of the people of Wales) and base the argument around that.John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-83286150059292459942012-08-01T18:08:07.498+01:002012-08-01T18:08:07.498+01:00In your third para you state that you are” unaware...In your third para you state that you are” unaware of anybody wanting Independence tomorrow “- you are now.<br />I am a reasonable and tolerant man, so let’s start at 06:30 tomorrow.Spirit of BMEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-29541820120594886232012-08-01T16:23:28.614+01:002012-08-01T16:23:28.614+01:00Nospin,
Up to a point, I agree with you. To the ...Nospin,<br /><br />Up to a point, I agree with you. To the extent that governments can actually influence the economy (and that is a highly arguable point), it's the policies followed which make the difference, not the level of government which promote them. In theory, the problems of Wales could be adressed either within the union or outside it by an independent Wales.<br /><br />The question, though - and this may be where we part company - is which sort of government is most likely to follow policies aimed at reducing the GVA gap. The answer to that is never going to be couched in terms of incontrovertible fact; it can only ever be a matter of opinion. I believe that a Welsh Government focussed exclusively on the Welsh situation is more likely to follow policies aimed at reducing the gap than is a UK Government focussed on the bottom line for the UK as a whole.<br /><br />Decades of experience showing the failure of one approach is no guarantee of the success of the other, of course. But it's not a bad reason to think that maybe an alternative just might be more successful. There is, though, no guarantee (as I've blogged a number of times) that a Welsh Government wouldn't simply look at the bottom line for the whole of Wales and close an external gap at the cost of increasing the internal one...John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-19561144791548659422012-08-01T11:19:46.711+01:002012-08-01T11:19:46.711+01:00Nationalism /independence as part of the economic ...Nationalism /independence as part of the economic solution is no more relevant here than it would be in the NE, Ie it is irrelevant.<br /><br />I accept that it is a convenient and useful tool for nationalists to use, but common sense shows the two issues are not connected in any way.Nospinhttp://www.walesopinionslive.freeforums.orgnoreply@blogger.com