tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post4292733248265819325..comments2024-03-26T09:38:39.888+00:00Comments on Borthlas: Identifying the culpritsJohn Dixonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-2712291245599141762017-10-07T08:23:08.053+01:002017-10-07T08:23:08.053+01:00Anon,
"But the polls have also shown consist...Anon,<br /><br /><i>"But the polls have also shown consistently that of those likely to vote in a referendum, a clear majority back independence."</i> Fair point - correction accepted!John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-51682439718797595162017-10-06T21:46:26.312+01:002017-10-06T21:46:26.312+01:00Not sure that opinion polls have shown what you su...Not sure that opinion polls have shown what you suggest, John. Polls have shown majorities both in favour and against independence perhaps suggesting that there was little between the two sides. (that may have changed now - we'll have to wait and see) But the polls have also shown consistently that of those likely to vote in a referendum, a clear majority back independence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-6702735420219555472017-10-06T17:51:47.596+01:002017-10-06T17:51:47.596+01:00Yes, one reason we don't block the Severn Brid...Yes, one reason we don't block the Severn Bridge in pursuit of independence is that we don't yet have anything approaching a majority in favour. I can understand the smaller EU coutnries being afraid to rock the boat, but that's no reason for them not to condemn the brutal crackdown. That's just cowardly.<br />Ivor Nadirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07944159585089116419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-23479716003940160952017-10-06T08:00:04.604+01:002017-10-06T08:00:04.604+01:00kp,
The problem that you will have with a simplis...kp,<br /><br />The problem that you will have with a simplistic reliance on 'the law', whilst it might avoid any requirement for thought, is that it can lead you into very murky waters. Apartheid was 'the law', but it was a law passed in a country where the majority were denied the vote. And we all know that 'I was only following orders' has been ruled to be inadequate as a defence, even if the orders themselves are 'legal' under the relevant system of government. Those examples raise the question of the legitimacy underpinning any law.<br /><br />What we are seeing in Catalunya is a clash of two different views about legitimacy, and legitimacy isn't the same as law. On the one hand, the interpretation in Madrid is that all legitimacy stems from the constitution. The relevant clause was inserted in the constitution by a military dictator who seized power in a bloody coup, and retained at the point of transition as part of the price for the military returning to their barracks. The interpretation in Catalunya is that the democratically elected parliament containing a majority of <i>independentistas</i> passed a law to hold a referendum, and that the legitimacy of that law stems from that election. Ultimately, the best way of resolving those alternative viewsis some sort of political solution leading to a proper organised vote, but it's hard to see how that can happen when one party to the dispute simply rules out allowing the people to choose.<br /><br />It is true that opinion polls showed, before last Sunday, that only a minority in Catalunya were likely to vote for independence, but the democratic way to test that is by holding a formal referendum. John Dixonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07447224248021209852noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-60076708949469256082017-10-05T16:59:09.327+01:002017-10-05T16:59:09.327+01:00I think you confuse issues here. The UK, France, I...I think you confuse issues here. The UK, France, Italy and Germany do not 'take the side of Madrid', they support the rule of law in individual countries. For if not, imagine the difficulties.<br /><br />As for the smaller countries, perhaps they are not 'so keen to support' Catalunya because at least 50% of Catalans appear not to want to go down this path to independence. <br /><br />The great hope is that a peaceful civil war erupts in Catalunya between the competing factions, much as it did in Scotland during the run-up to the vote for independence. Whilst the Catalans are metaphorically fighting themselves the other Spanish region have a chance to benefit from the fall-out (be it in terms of new job creation, company relocations and so on). In time no-one will much care what happens to the Catalunya, not even the Catalans themselves. <br /><br />The wounds will eventually heal, but it will take generations. Just look to Wales.<br /><br />kp<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4411161795798360588.post-69865017388972206882017-10-05T16:53:47.926+01:002017-10-05T16:53:47.926+01:00I would not get too upset with the smaller, newer ...I would not get too upset with the smaller, newer arrivals. Two reasons.<br />1. They are small, and new. It would be asking a lot for them to come out all militant and annoy their new family. Especially at this stage. The game is only part-finished. The chips are not yet down.<br />2. A break-away state cannot expect an easy ride. When the white bits of the British Empire broke away (Ireland, North Carolina whence this post) there was a lot of confrontational politics, and pretty much all-out war. All very regrettable in retrospect and now conveniently forgotten. But a break-away state must expect at least tension. You have to factor in at least riot-police, civil disobedience. I don't FAVOUR this, but you have to allow for it. There is the hard yards stage of the game when the break-away has to make the stand, try to create a new reality (alone and with few assets) take the consequences, and then wait for others to accept the new reality. That's the price of any break-away in Europe. <br />The Slovenians and the Catalans did their calculations, can pay the price, stand the confrontation, because they believe in what they are doing. Its the Welsh I worry about. We are known as tough fighters in armies: Mametz Wood, Welsh Guards, 53rd Division at 's-Hertogenbosch, South Holland in WW2 etc. But who can see Welsh politicians, Labour ones say, or even Plaid ones these days, making a Declaration, confronting Westminster by exceeding a few powers, blocking the Severn Bridge for 10 minutes. Because that's all it would take before the situation got ratified, legalised. And the Welsh would have earned the respect now going to the CatalansJonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05937342201811857738noreply@blogger.com